There has to be something unlawful about that whole issue, or at least those people should be successful with civil suits. If they lied on applications, then they should have been fired. However, if being a non-smoker was not part of the criteria, then they should not have been fired. This is going to be such a mess - just like our health care system.

Like the alcholic baseball player given a higher position on the waiting list for a liver transplant. He received it and died not too many months later.

I find the topics Moore chooses to discuss often interesting, but I try to formulate my opinions on them from viewing other source material. It really bothers me that he is able to sway so many people with his one sided antics. Again, I'm not saying his conclusions are wrong but I find his film making and presentation really quite immmoral. Does the end justify the means, or is it really more important how you play the game?

Just needed to vent; I'm really not a big Moore fan, can you tell ;)

On a side note, Clairabelle, I too find aspartame and, more importantly the lack of "news coverage" on it's dangers interesting as I've noticed it causes me to be sick.

I wonder what Philip Morris' health benefits are for their employees?

WRT the smoker testing - I was in a job that subjected me to random drug testing and allowed my employer to investigate me for drugs. My libertarian soul rebelled (on principle, I'm as straight an arrow as they come) and I had a long talk with one of our corporate lawyers with whom I worked regularly. He bottom lined it for me: I had many rights as an individual, but I did not have the "right" to work for that particular company.

I agree that Moore has an agenda of his own and his reporting is biased. Still he is one of the few to tread where he is treading. Besides Lou Dobbs, I don't know of anyone else who is daring enough to take on the Corporate Criminals.

While we are talking about aspartame you might as well mention Partially Hydrogenated Fats. There are reports that this is like ingesting plastic and is one of the main causes of heart disease, yet the news channels say nothing about it. The scary part is that when you start reading labels, Partially Hydrogenated Fats are in nearly everything we eat.

Who do you want making decisions about your health? You and your doctor or someone without a medical degree on the other end of a telephone line and they've never seen you?

Is medical insurance coverage designed to help people avoid total financial ruin due to health problems or is it designed to cover every cost?

If a health maintenance organization denies coverage for a health matter, does that in itself withhold medical care or can the patient seek other avenues?

If your daughter were to receive medical mistreatment at age 10, would you think that $350,000 would cover the loss of sight for the rest of her life? or the loss of a leg? death?

In the United States of America, some states are considered "employment at will" states. This means that employers provide continued employment at their pleasure. That is, employees are granted the privilege of working for the employers on an onging basis and that continuum can be interrupted for any or no reason. Is this right?

If a company requires all their employees to be subject to random drug testing as a condition of employment doesn't the employee imply by beginning to work for that employer and accepting their paycheck that they agree to accept those conditions? Would it be the same for a non-smoking policy?

Is it bad, in itself, to make a profit?

Who should bear the cost of research for new drugs?

Would you want Michael Moore for a brother in law?

JIMBO

I think there's too much time spent on the paperwork and processing of smaller stuff. A lot of this stuff probably shouldn't be covered. And, I'm sure there are many frivolous law suits, but, I actually think there are just as many if not more suits that could and should be filed but aren't. I've have to correct doctor's themselves about drug dosings and interactions, etc... I can not understand the absolute incompetence today in the medical field. I have to double check everything and find numerous mistakes on every tier of the medical chain. There would be no need for caps if there weren't so many blatant disastrous mistakes. Why don't they focus on correcting the system so less mistakes happen instead of worrying about caps. I just don't know how this industry functions in our society today.

Don't know what the answer is, but there has to be something better!

About company versus individual rights: Well, to take it one step futher...should a company be allowed to tell you that you can't eat lettuce or drink fruit punch? One side of me thinks a company should be able to hire anyone they want and give any ultimatums it wants to, and the other side of me thinks it should only be able to control you on illegal matters like testing for drugs. Not really sure what's right here either...very grey area.

As for Moore being my brother-in-law...well, only if he lived in another state, and liked to spoil his relatives with very expensive gifts. :) You're not really suppose to like you in-laws anyway, right?

Why do employers provide health insurance? And why should they?

At what point does making a profit turn into greed?

Do mistakes come from not paying enough for our medical care? We cannot expect doctors to be perfect. We can expect that systems are in place to catch and minimize any human error. That does take money and big picture thinking.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/25/national/main669369.shtml

I do think we all need to take more responsibility for our health, like Mr. Moore needs to exercise and eat less! = : )

And whoever mentioned partially hydrogenated fats - you are so right!! It's everywhere! I finally went back to butter because I couldn't find any other spreads without PHF.

Then my good friend, Morris, was visiting his mother in the hospital. She had had serious back surgery and was in pretty bad shape. The doctor told her she would be going home in the morning. Morris knew she couldn't take care of herself well enough to go home, so he told them she was going to stay another night. The doctor told him he (the doctor) would be fined by medicare if she stayed any longer than was prescribed in some standard list of stays. Morris threatened him with mal practice if he sent her home too early, so the bigger threat prevailed.

There is no doubt there is something terribly wrong with our health care system in America. I don't have the answer to how to straighten it out, but we aren't powerless. We just have to raise enough of a ruckus to get it changed. And Michael Moore's brand of dishonesty isn't the way to do it. Whatever you may think of his politics, his "documentaries" aren't documentaries. They are contrived deliveries of his beliefs.

Thank you for the opportunity to vent. I love this forum.

JIMBO

x-posted with Phillip, I see. :-)

Cigarette smoking is also emblematic in "Chinatown": Evelyn Mulwray's cigarette holder, Jake Gittes's cigarette dangling from his lip and how he blew out the smoke, etc. Smoke was used to frame the original poster art (later the cover art for the videos).

I read somewhere how Gwyneth Paltrow, a nonsmoker, had to appear like she was smoking, to authentically portray Sylvia Plath in the biopic "Sylvia." It wasn't quite convincing, in my opinion. But I don't know what she should have done differently -- certainly not really smoke!

We have strayed quite a ways from lumberjack's subject, though. I'm with those who think the subject of Moore's latest effort is certainly worthy, and I also agree that Moore has painted himself into a corner re his credibility.

I have friends in Canada and friends & relatives still in England I know of quite a few experiences in both countries with a National Health system that made me glad I didn't live under that system.
But having said that there are bad experiences here in the states that I know of having worked for Dr's for many years. My conclusion is that there is no perfect system!

I had a phone call just last week from my friend in Canada complaining bitterly about her treatment and saying if she wants to get to the bottom of her health problems she has to pay for tests out of pocket because although her Dr says he doesn't know what is wrong with her-he went on to tell her she didn't have much more than a year left to live...not wanting to accept that she is paying for tests out her own pocket costing her many hundreds, but as she said she thinks she has no alternative.
She went on to tell me that the waiting lists are long for surgeries and that she knows people that come to the states & pay for procedures rather than wait for many months.

I also just rec'd a letter from a friend in England complaining about her Mother's treatment after a fall and other relatives over the years have confirmed how overworked that system is. I saw firsthand when my Mother was hospitalised in England....but I don't want to revisit that experience!

Yes there are problems with our system, but where is there one any better....?

Yes, Moore has a definite agenda, and no I don't trust him and certainly wouldn't want to meet that scruffy man anywhere or be in anyway related to him by marriage or otherwise!

Pat

Bobbie, I too started buying butter instead of injecting the plastic known as margarine into my arteries.

I just don't like how those who claim America has a litigious society always point to this case, when the case actually had significant merit. Stella Liebeck should have won, because she deserved to win.

The "loser pays" idea sounds like such a great theory in concept but let's say you were a poor uneducated person who lost their son in some medical mishap. Do you truly think your dime a dozen lawyer could easily win against the 12 big wig hospital lawyers? Furthermore, let's say you decide to take a chance on the case and spend around $3000 while the hospital attorney's bill comes to around 50,000. In fact, why don't they go ahead and spend $100,000 just to make sure they win and you have to pay? See, not only do costs get driven up, but the poorer victims could become the victims twice. I'm sure this isn't the example you were thinking of, but IMHO just goes to show that with every seeming solution comes a new problem.

Anyway, I'm not trying to hijack the thread into another subject, but I just see that it's all a part of the big picture with run-a-way health costs. Moore's not going to change anything. He's just another opportunist, with a niche going, getting rich with sensationalistic film making, knowing his growing gullible audiences will buy what he's selling.

I don't think it opened the floodgates for frivolous lawsuits, just our appetite, and the media's, for instances of such cases. Frivolous lawsuits, especially between big businesses, have been around for much longer than the Stella Awards.

I just think that, so long as the medical industry is unwilling to police itself in any satifactory manner, the general consumer should be given the opportunity to receive compensation for incompetent, and even deadly, medical treatment.

Reggie, while I'm tempted to agree with your position on smoking in film, I actually enjoyed Coffee and Cigarettes, so I can't agree without being somewhat hypocritical.

I think the problem with Michael Moore's films is the way he handles the publicity after the fact. For example, Bowling for Columbine isn't so much an anti-gun flick, but rather a statement on the culture of fear in the U.S. But looking at the reaction to it--fueled by Moore himself--you would think the whole film was about guns.

Personally, I would love to have Michael Moore as brother-in-law. My current family get-togethers always seem to be somewhat mundane, and altogether too civil.

About health care costs: One reason they are so high is because of the advances in medical technology. More sophisticated tests and treatments are available and they all cost more.

I caddied from age 12 to 18, and the 'cool' golfers were the ones with the most influence on us. We would watch their swings, the way they putted, even how they ate and drank. At the year-end caddy dinner, it was the napkin placement, the use of utensils, and such. These adults had no idea the influence thay had on us. More than many a father, for sure.

And yes, the 'cool' ones, the golfers we wanted to imitate, smoked with 'class'. The fancy lighters; it all went together for us in becoming smokers, and having a devil of a time quiting.

When I see smoking in movies, on stage (unlit), and at concerts I just cringe. Don't these 'stars' understand their ability to sway the audience? Won't someone make them aware? 'Guns and Roses' is a good example, with the cigarette hanging out of the guitarist's mouth. How many are smoking because of this band today? Hoping to quit tomorrow or maybe the next?

Smoking is a VERY addictive drug. Not enough thought is given to teenagers and who they look up to and respect.